Legal Questions

Who does a guy have to talk to about formally incorporating a Mercenary Company?

If I get it incorporated, what do I need to do to get permission to police and punish my own?

Finally, what are the rules for formally protesting the actions of governing officials?

--Rannick--
(OOG: Andy Sherbo)

According to the laws of Kormyre, the ranking noble of an area (in this instance, His Excellency Baron Montgomery), may charter a military organization able to operate in his lands.  Said organization would be able to operate under the terms of its charter and any punishments beyond fines and dismissal from the service of the group would have to be specifically mentioned in the charter.  As Travance is operating under marshal law, any organization (indeed, any resident) is subject to be called to the colors by His Grace, Count Winterdark.

Any citizen may bring a matter concerning infractions of Baronial Law to the attention of Travance's High Magistrate, The Honorable Wou Tou Shen.  

As for Shen, thanks for the info, Alderman.

As for the Company, I write the charter, get it approved by the Baron, and make sure I put in provisions for how we punish infractions, along with any extra rules I want my guys to follow, and then we're good to go?

Am I on track here?

this would be correct

Mr. Rannick,

If it is required, I would happily assist you in penning this charter for yours for an independent militant group to ensure a smooth transition in getting you and your men incorporated into the barony as soon as possible.

"provisions for how we punish infractions"

Mr. Rannick,

As a rank member of the guard and long standing citizen I respectfully ask for clarification as to what you mean because while both the Barony as well as some private citizens welcome an extra organized military group, the Barony can do with out vigilante's; making upholding the laws and protecting our nobility that much more difficult...

Make no mistake I speak only for my self and in the interest of the position I hold and the people I'm sworn to protect...

with honor,

Mr. Cypher,

Thanks, but I've got the priest here looking at the first draft.  Once he's through with it, I might pass it under your nose for a second opinion, but I'd rather have just one editor at a time.  It's kind of long and already makes my head hurt.

Mr. Quan Liu,

I didn't mean vigilante justice - I'm not talking about being allowed to dish out justice to any citizen of Travance.  I'm talking about the ability to police OURSELVES.  In other words, if one of MY men breaks the law of the land, or breaks Company Policy, or both at the same time, I want to have first dibs at punishing him.  The Baron could always overturn our ruling, throw on extra punishment, or otherwise change how we did things as he sees fit, of course, but it's important that a military organization be allowed to police its own to an extent.

The idea is this - we need strict discipline.  That strict discipline needs to come from the Commanders - that's how a military needs to work, or it will fall apart.  On top of that, if I'm allowed to discipline my people under both the Laws of Travance and under my Company Charter, I can hold them to a much higher standard of behavior and discipline.

It appears to me you are trying to establish a guild, with you as the guild leader.

-Odo Garaath

I looked this up:

"The Guildmaster is a position that a noble can sanctify within his realm. By doing so the Noble gives the Guildmaster deference in matters of justice within the walls of the guild. In other words, by making the Guildmaster an official, the noble has relinquished his authority within the physical bounds of the guild. Thus allowing the Guildmaster to punish his member as he sees fit within the physical confines of the Guild. There may be unofficial Guildmasters within the lands of a noble but they are subject to the laws of the land as any commoner would be, and could be tried for any action they take on guild members."

Looks like that's EXACTLY what I'm looking for - to incorporate an official guild.  I may or may not be the Commander - I'm just doing the legwork on finding out what we need to do to be able and allowed to police our own.

High Magistrate's domain is in enforcing The Kings laws over the Nobles, Any other disputes or questions dealing in the law, are referred to myself or to my Inquisitors.

Please do not trouble him with issues that do not concern Nobility.

Correction on what has been stated, baronial law supper-seeds your charter, for instance if you fine members of your group 20 gold for stealing from each other, the baronial law will collect and enforce punishment before you do, for instance, if the subject at hand only has 20 gold it will go to the barony and the person who has been stolen from first, and any remaining gold that person has left is then subject to your laws.

On another note, I personally do not see the need for soldiers of fortune, as all the lands always need vassals, the guard of the town is currently recruiting and we are under marshal law where everyone in these lands will fight as needed for the Count and refusing to fight when called because you were not paid is subject to treason.

What the heck is a supper-seed?  Is it something you southerners eat?

Oh.  "Supercede."  Gotcha.

I'd like to see where your "correction" is written down, because it looks to me like Guildmasters get full legal reign over their folks.  The quote I pulled comes directly from the "Code of Laws" posted at the Baronial Library.

If it IS written down somewhere, it hardly matters, because, either way, I fully intend to enforce Travance Law as well as charter policy within the Company.  If one of my men is caught stealing, I'll make sure the Barony and the victim get their gold, and then we'll do with the offender as we see fit.  If what you say is true, then with more serious infractions I'll make sure Baronial Law is satisfied first before we impose our own punishments.  I'm more interested in disciplining infractions than I am in taking my mercenaries' money.

Like, say, with repeat-offense Torture, I'll happily see to it the offender is publicly executed, that his belongings are surrendered to the Barony, and that the Baron gets the opportunity to exile or obliterate him before enacting the Company's justice.  In this case, all that I would feel the need to tack on to all of this would probably be a public beating and expulsion from the Company, so I might ask if we can do this before the offender is executed.

As for whether or not you see a need for soldiers of fortune, I'm forming the Company so I can create a proper strike force - well trained, cohesive, and ready for action.  We'll do our duty to Travance, of course, but there are always odd jobs around town that need doing - goblins here, gnolls there, a cave full of monsters, etc.  Simple things that aren't exactly "threats to national security."  We can take care of these things, get paid, and be all the more ready to answer the common call to action.  Given the opportunity and the right people, I can train a force that will be ready for action MUCH faster than any gathering of the townsfolk I've seen yet, and who will take the field as a disciplined force, well versed in tactics and strategies that will certainly help carry the day.

If you don't see the need for this, then ... why are we under marshal law?  It seems to me that any situation which would require the Barony to be under marshal law would be precisely the right time to have a well-trained force available.  Given people who'd rather not be in the guard, who are able to perform under the Company's difficult training requirements, and  who measure up to our strict standards of discipline, we would be quite the asset in these dangerous times.

I've thought of something regarding my example ... I mentioned "repeat-offense Torture."  The example makes no sense, as my drafted charter has a policy against "mistreatment of the enemy."  Anyone who is cruel to a prisoner, breaks a truce, or anything of that nature would be fined, beaten, and expelled.  We also have a general policy against "conduct unbecoming the Company," so anyone who has been convicted of torture ONCE wouldn't BE in the Company, any more.

Unless, I suppose, they had been convicted of torture before getting into the Company ... but I would rather not have people like that in the ranks.

Say ... now that I think of it, Inquisitor Ralenfolly, you could be of considerable assistance in my recruiting efforts.  I would like to know something of the background of anyone wanting to join.  Would you be willing to do background checks?  Or, at the very least, if I came to you with a list of potential recruits, would you be able to tell me what sort of legal trouble they've been in, if any?

You should probably do something like this with whomever you induct into the town guard, if you don't already.

"Rannick",

If you wish to be treated as an adult, you will act like one, if you wish to mock my words and belittle what I have to say, we can have words or however you express your distaste for a an individual in person.

For those ignorant or for persons such as your self, the "Guild-Law" you are quoting dose not apply to a Charter, it applies to a Mages Guild Leader, where students illegal studies have lead to Necromancy in the past, thus the King and by default our Baron have the right to perform their own laws on students to make sure none lead to the dark path and to dispatch them if needed, and are found to be Necromancers.

I can see by the way you speak you are only forming this to have "Full Legal Reign" over folks and I would advice all in Travance to steer clear of you.

In-fact I hope what "Guild",you are speaking of and hopefully becoming the "Guild Master" of is not the Storm Runners ,who I know you to have been involved in, in fact the Storm Runners are currently disbanded by Order of Sir Mcdermitt, and all members of such have been ordered to questioning for Treason to Travance.

So I will be seeing you at the very beginning of this moon, "Rannick"

Your name has been on my list from the other members of this group that were questioned as a person in charge. If you are found in charge of this group, you will be subject to the penalty of Practicing Espionage against the Barony as information gathered that the leaders of this group had plans to over throw the Barony, also if in questioning I find that this particular conversation is about the Storm Runners, and I "will be asking", you are now in violation of a direct baronial knights orders which will be a second strike of Practicing Espionage against the Barony on you.

Feel free to look up the penalties for this law in the "Baronial Library."

It is against the law for me to invade someones mind against their will to check on their beliefs or opinions on the laws of Travance or even to see what their favorite color is, the subject of a persons background of legal trouble in Travance can be discussed with the Baron on a case by case basis.

If you wish to persist on this topic of ways to take the baronial laws in to your own hands feel free.

Let it be known that I have no authority in the subject matter at hand, but as an observationist and someone who has had to have played to fill the role of notifying less than active ex-members of the organization that shall not be named under the order of Sir McDermitt that even mentioning the organization by noble decree is treasonous; and that anyone who mentions the organization will be arrested; I think you haven't had the chance to be sat down and tell things how they were made to be in person.

I'd like to interject if possible as an interested party in this matter. You insulting the nobles and putting the stamp of a taboo organization on a new "mercenary company" has more than likely doomed you to failure already. Now is not a good time or a tactful place to be trying to raise something from the ashes with all of the problems that have hit the town in regards to this debacle including the monastary incident with Jarric. I am a friend of Wulfgar's and I use the word friend as he is already in a good deal of trouble for matters he hasn't even been in the town for. You are making the situation worse not only for him, but anyone affiliated with the previous organization. You are putting good people in jeopardy by pushing hard on an issue and doing it in such a distasteful and rude manner. Good people were put in jeopardy because of the mistakes of one person who made a very stupid mistake. Now in addition to that, the clergy find themselves in a hard pressed position for trying to protect Jarric. Everyone is mad about the topic and the event hasn't even remotely started to pass. I postively implore you to quit while you're behind; this is going downhill very quickly and simply from what you said, about trying to "reform the storm runners"; anyone involved with you may be subject to even harsher consequences this time; I speak for myself and several other people who have had their reputation damaged by being involved with the organization; You need to stop making things worse.

To Rannick,

You do not know me, at least I do not think you do as this is the first time I have heard your name brought up around Travance Proper.  I merely have a question for you concerning your foray into the creation of a Guild for Mercenaries.

It has come to my attention that Travance Proper has at it's access and availability a Royal Guard to serve the land and it's people... it also would appear that the lands of Dreaga'mire, Aliesandria, Kaladonia and Pendarvin are also in command of Town Guards to aid in the protection of their individual courts.  What is the purpose of a Guild who wishes to take on odd-jobs that include but are not limited too Goblins, Gnolls and caves full of Monsters?

Please don't misunderstand my question, but as far as I am to understand those Goblins, Gnolls and Monsters that do not invade, threaten or injure the subjects of the Barony pose no issue... and the Goblins, Gnolls and Monsters that do invade, threaten or injure the subjects of the Barony then become issue for the Royal Guard of Travance.

It would appear that the term "too many cooks in the kitchen" may be appropriate.  I do not see why those who you command, and yourself for that case could not work to become upstanding members of the Royal Guard and defer any issues in command to the chain of command that works within the ranks of the Royal Guard.  I have been told Captain Magnus Zero Von Ritter is an exceptional leader and that the Royal Guard is more active and supportive of the subjects of Travance now than ever.

So, to close my question I would like to simply ask if there is such a need for a Guild when the Royal Guard exists for this very reason.  From the brigand who harasses travelers to the Arch Devils that menace us from the shadows, it would appear to me that all threats to the safety of Travance and it's subjects are within the power afforded to the Royal Guard by His Excellency, Baron Montgomery.

Thank you all for your time,
Lucas Brand

To the nameless writer above my post... may I ask what noble has been insulted in this endeavor?

Wou Tou Shen,

It can be really hard to interpret the laws correctly when what's in the Baronial Library says one thing and government officials say another.  If Coriwn Ralenfolly here is correct, then please update this document to reflect what he has said.

Right now, all it says is what I quoted earlier on this board: "The Guildmaster is a position that a noble can sanctify within his realm. By doing so the Noble gives the Guildmaster deference in matters of justice within the walls of the guild. In other words, by making the Guildmaster an official, the noble has relinquished his authority within the physical bounds of the guild. Thus allowing the Guildmaster to punish his member as he sees fit within the physical confines of the Guild. There may be unofficial Guildmasters within the lands of a noble but they are subject to the laws of the land as any commoner would be, and could be tried for any action they take on guild members."

As you can see, it makes NO MENTION of the Mage's Guild, or any other specific guild, for that matter.  I'm not trying to interpret anything incorrectly.  I'm just confused because I've got two conflicting sources of information - both of which OUGHT to be completely trustworthy - and ALL I want is clarification.  It really doesn't matter to me which one turns out to be correct - I just want to know which one IS correct so that I can follow it and not get in trouble.

You're right - it IS up to me to make sure I know how this type of endeavor goes.  I made the mistake of trying to just gather people under me without any sort of official process last time, and because of that I ended up with a member who chose to be baptized to a dark god.  I recognize my error for what it is, and I wish I had gone through all the proper channels in the first place.  If I had, I might have had a chance to punish the little idiot myself before handing him over to the authorities, and make him into an example of what happens when you bring dishonor to the Company.

Please, understand - that's all I'm looking to do.  I want to get it done legally, the right way, so I can get back to training a force capable of defending Travance and furthering the Baron's interests like no other.  It was in fact my intention to reform my old group, but I wasn't going to do anything of the kind until and unless the order to disband has been rescinded, and my new charter has been reviewed and approved by the Baron - or whoever it is I need approval from.

I have a draft of the new charter completed.  I would be much obliged if you could take a moment to review it and make your suggestions.

Corwin Ralenfolly,

Great jumping polar-bears!  I was making a joke!  I was amused that I've learned to read all of a few months ago, so I'm lucky I was able to recognize your spelling error for what it was.  If I hadn't been taught so well, I'd have been really confused.  I'm sorry it hurt your feelings and I won't do it again - but you might want to hire someone to edit what you write.  It's important for people in authority to be able to communicate well.

Yeah, okay man.  I'll come find you and you can ask whatever questions you like.  I figured there was going to be something like that.  In case you need it, you have my express permission to invade my mind.  I haven't ever conspired against Travance.  I formed my old company to protect Travance and its interests, and we did pretty well at it.  All I'm trying to do now, like I said to Wou Tou Shen, is make a clean restart and do everything legally.

Seiya Harinth,

Your warning is noted.  It would have been nice if someone had notified me of that "you may not even speak its name!" particular earlier.  Say, maybe, right after it happened?

I'm not known for my caution, nor do I intend ever to be, but thanks for your concern.

And for the record, I haven't insulted or disrespected anyone.  I have voiced and explained my personal disagreement with personal opinions.  I don't disrespect anyone, and you'll KNOW when I'm insulting someone.

I tried to give you a piece of friendly advice. I am disappointed that you stop in your anger to bite your tongue and listen to the subtle undertones of what people have been trying to tell you. At this point I would like to advise you, that what you have said can be considered slanderous to nobility. I am advocating on your behalf here, that you need to take some time to calm down and step away from the issue. Attacking nobility and bringing up painful memories is not the way for someone to get what they want.

There are select people who are trying to compromise with you and help you find the proper channels, but the people you are ultimately making angry at you are the number one group of people who can completely ruin everything you are trying to accomplish. In addition, if they decide to process the request of yours to make the Guild happen, much in the same fashion of the other more well known guild is the person of which you are initiating a fight. If you do by some act of the Light create this organization, The Inquisition is going to have the authority and power to micromanage and investigate your practices on a regular basis; you however don't have the power to glean the true intentions of your members the way they have, and I assure you as someone who gets interrogated every moon because of my blood line; that it is a proverbial pain in the hind quarters. No one is going to want to feel that level of privacy invaded to be amongst your jolly crew.

Jack Brand,

1. The best defense is a good offense, amigo.  Gotta take the fight to them.  If we set the bad guys back on their heels, they won't be able to bother the town so much.

2. I guess I'd be willing to be in charge of a "go out and get 'em" squad within the guard, but I'd prefer to do it this way.

Does that answer your question?

Mr. Rannick,
          As I understand it you are merely using the resources at hand to accomplish a task that is not often sought after.  Recently myself and the other members of the Baronial Council are bringing to Travance many documents that are often used in Arawyn.  A Charter is one of these,  and it will have a standard form associated with it.  However for the time being you are more than welcome to make a mock Charter or a Draft  and then have it submitted to the barony for review and editing.  I will be requiring the Charter so that it may be inducted into the registry and also have the necessary stamps and seals put into place after it has been revised and approved.  If you have any questions or concerns I am at your service.  Thank you for your time.  I look forward to working with you.

Rannick,

It does answer my question, and I thank you for your response.  Though I do not agree with the concept of the best defense being a good offense, such things seem to lend to a "swing first and ask later" mentality, which is something I personally could not agree too.

Perhaps while you await paperwork to be overlooked and a decision to be made, you should speak with Captain Magnus Zero Von Ritter about the possibility of lending yourself and your military knowledge to protecting our Barony through the Royal Guard.

Thank you,
Lucas Brand

"I am disappointed that you stop in your anger to bite your tongue ..."

Did you mean, "I am disappointed AND SUGGEST that you stop in your anger to bite your tongue ..."?

I confess, I only learned to read and write a few months ago.  If this is some turn of phrase, please enlighten me.  Otherwise, PLEASE take the time to carefully write out what you mean to say to me.  I haven't completely gotten the hang of this "written language" thing, yet, and I get easily confused by blatant errors.

For example ...

" In addition, if they decide to process the request of yours to make the Guild happen, much in the same fashion of the other more well known guild is the person of which you are initiating a fight."

Would you try again, please?  I didn't understand this sentence at all.

As for looking inside my members' minds, I just asked the Inquisition to do exactly that.  I WANT them to have a good look at what we're doing, what we're about, and who we're recruiting.  Maybe they can help me keep evil idiots like Jerec out of my ranks, this time around.  They can be all up in my business as long as they like.  Hopefully, eventually they'll be satisfied that I can keep my organization free of evil influence this time around, but if not I will always welcome their help in weeding out traitors.

Well, I'm finished trying to play the diplomat here. Just be advised again, that your offense approach is also, more than likely illegal. It is forbidden to attack sentient beings who are not immediately hostile or an imminent threat to the land. I was almost arrested twice last moon for personally doing it.

However, by my logic slavers aren't people and he's lucky I only half burnt his face off, but if trolls are walking around looking for a fight and don't attack anyone; I have personally been detained by a town guard for lighting them on fire. You going and invading the habitats of the beastmen of your own volition is once more vigilante justice, outside the scope of baronial laws, and will ultimately be destructive to the town because you are shaking a stick at a beehive that's already half ready to fall down.

So far, by my count you have slandered Alissandria, insulted the High Inquisitor on several counts; undermined the authority of the nobility, put myself and others in danger for you trying to reform a disbanded organization which over the course of the last two moons was threatened for execution by Sir McDermitt himself, and are conspiring to create an organization with the purpose of performing vigilante justice in your own words and performing illegal actions including but not limited to provoking local tribes of beastmen into attacking Travance. For your own sake, please drop the issue. One person has already been killed once, if not twice for this debacle. Don't be a Jerrec.

Rannick -

You are hereby ordered to report to Sir Darkheart or Inquisitor Ralenfolly immediately upon your entrance into the proper for the next month's feast. You are not to make any further posts to this public board until that time.

Sir Darkheart and Inquisitor Ralenfolly -

You shall question Rannick to my complete satisfaction before allowing him to return to the general population. Get Sir McDermitt or Dame Tourmaline to assist if they are available.

Additionally, if you should see him before I do, please make clear my position to the Baron that I do not believe any mercenary groups should be allowed charter within Travance. Coming from Coast Haven, I can give you first hand account that these groups rarely have the best interests of their host lands in mind.


In service to the King,

Lord Apollo Abendroth of Drega'mire