Jamaica: (Was - Re: Money, Taxes, and Rebates)
- Darkhunter

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17 years 11 months ago #2428
by Darkhunter (Darkhunter)
**********************
Bjorn Triplethree
**OOC**
Rob
Replied by Darkhunter (Darkhunter) on topic Jamaica: (Was - Re: Money, Taxes, and Rebates)
Alright, that answers those questions, Now you mentioned several others, do you split one building much like a time share? or do others have there own dwellings there building on the property so to speak...forming a sort of community? The caretaker....do you have a written contract with him, or is it all word of mouth? and seeing as you went to his house to get your tools, I take it he doesnt live there. Have you thought of perhaps a live in caretaker?
Also, how about Running water, did you have to drill or did the land have a natural source? How much clearing of the place did you do, and if you cleared any tree's did you sell the wood? Just some questions for the time being.
5 Stripes? hmm, Im planning to go warrent soon. Learn to fly helicopters, one of the rare skills you dont see to many having. Perhaps hire myself out to personaaly fly a costa rican drug lord, hahahahahahah. Just kidding.
anyway man.....Ill sit back drink a nice cold near beer....and Im listening away
Also, how about Running water, did you have to drill or did the land have a natural source? How much clearing of the place did you do, and if you cleared any tree's did you sell the wood? Just some questions for the time being.
5 Stripes? hmm, Im planning to go warrent soon. Learn to fly helicopters, one of the rare skills you dont see to many having. Perhaps hire myself out to personaaly fly a costa rican drug lord, hahahahahahah. Just kidding.
anyway man.....Ill sit back drink a nice cold near beer....and Im listening away
**********************
Bjorn Triplethree
**OOC**
Rob
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17 years 11 months ago - 17 years 11 months ago #2434
by Seamstress (Seamstress)
OOG ~ Tina S ~ aka Seamstress
Primary Location 42°42' N, 75°11' W
Preferred Location 18°22'N, 78°14'W
Replied by Seamstress (Seamstress) on topic Jamaica: (Was - Re: Money, Taxes, and Rebates)
Here's a link to some photos of our place in Jamaica, including the burglar bars, the 600 gal cisterns that collect rain water from the roof (or that we'll pay to get filled if there's not enough rain), the road, and a view of the house.
www.kodakgallery.com/I.jsp?c=lvi6dsn.mgxwg47&x=0&y=fjjq0i
My avatar was taken on the porch.
Each couple/family is building their own "bungalow" which will have a bedroom/s, bath and small kitchen. It's up to each partner who stays in their house pretty much although I don't think any of us plan on actually renting our houses. We have another friend here in PA who's a locksmith and he's provided us with locks like you've probably never seen that are pretty much thief proof, and the bars should keep casual thieves away. Running water right now comes from either the 4 cisterns under the porch or from the four emergency 600 gal cisterns up on the "fortress" at the top of our hill/property. We've also plumbed gray water into barrels to use for watering plantings. Word has it that the public water pipe is getting closer -- within a couple of hills. Who knows how long it'll take to get to us, or when we'll decide to "go after it," but JA public water has never given any of us any problems when we drink it. We've installed a cesspool/septic system that all the houses are hooked into. The land had been sugar cane fields, so we didn't have to clear forest or lots of vegetation. As for the tree or two that did come down, the wood was most likely used to cook lunch for the crew. It's the bamboo that really puts up a fight, as our friend can attest to as he battled for a week to remove the bamboo clump that wouldn't die. One thing we didn't do, b/c there were some other irons in the fire at the time, was solar hot water. Our friends have it just put a solar hot water system on their roof, so we can compare notes with them to see how it works.
I'm sure Charlie will add to this....
www.kodakgallery.com/I.jsp?c=lvi6dsn.mgxwg47&x=0&y=fjjq0i
My avatar was taken on the porch.
Each couple/family is building their own "bungalow" which will have a bedroom/s, bath and small kitchen. It's up to each partner who stays in their house pretty much although I don't think any of us plan on actually renting our houses. We have another friend here in PA who's a locksmith and he's provided us with locks like you've probably never seen that are pretty much thief proof, and the bars should keep casual thieves away. Running water right now comes from either the 4 cisterns under the porch or from the four emergency 600 gal cisterns up on the "fortress" at the top of our hill/property. We've also plumbed gray water into barrels to use for watering plantings. Word has it that the public water pipe is getting closer -- within a couple of hills. Who knows how long it'll take to get to us, or when we'll decide to "go after it," but JA public water has never given any of us any problems when we drink it. We've installed a cesspool/septic system that all the houses are hooked into. The land had been sugar cane fields, so we didn't have to clear forest or lots of vegetation. As for the tree or two that did come down, the wood was most likely used to cook lunch for the crew. It's the bamboo that really puts up a fight, as our friend can attest to as he battled for a week to remove the bamboo clump that wouldn't die. One thing we didn't do, b/c there were some other irons in the fire at the time, was solar hot water. Our friends have it just put a solar hot water system on their roof, so we can compare notes with them to see how it works.
I'm sure Charlie will add to this....
OOG ~ Tina S ~ aka Seamstress
Primary Location 42°42' N, 75°11' W
Preferred Location 18°22'N, 78°14'W
Last edit: 17 years 11 months ago by Unnamed user.
- geezer

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17 years 11 months ago #2442
by geezer (geezer)
Edwin Haroldson
Loremaster
Master of the Mages' Guild
An ethical person does the right thing when no one is watching.
OOG - Charlie Spiegel - Kitchen Marshal
"War is a matter of vital importance to the State..."
Replied by geezer (geezer) on topic Jamaica: (Was - Re: Money, Taxes, and Rebates)
If concrete based construction is not occurring, our2600 gallons of water should be enough to get us through the dry season with no problem. Eventually a washing machine will be purchased (or we will contract with someone local), but that will use realtively little water. Reuse of the grey water also saves.
The locks - ah yes. I have a standing wager with the work crew that they cannot force our locks. I offer 70:1 odds, betting J vs US. So far, its like giving chess lessons IG at KR
. They have no access to liquid oxygen or nitrogen, which is the only thing I can imagine that would allow it to be beaten.
We have a written list of what our caretaker is to do to earn his salary, plus a few bonus items. At the moment, my pissedoffedness is quite high, as concerns him. That is unfortunate, because up to now I have been the one who negotiated his "contract." the last was a three year deal and this is the last year. We eventually want our caretaker to reside on site, but it is too remote for his tastes at the moment - more importantly, it is too remote for his wife. The local route Taxis (a route taxi allows one to get from station to station for a remakably low sum. We can go the twoegs and 15 iles from the end of our road to the great beaches for under $2 US). Its getting to Prospect or Grange, 8/10 of a mile or 1.5 miles, that requires walking, as there are not enough customers at or end to make it a regular route. We can get special service for around and extra $3 0r 4, however.
Growing naturally on our proeerty are Mangoes, Limes, and some misc shade trees. We planted orange, pineapple, banana, guava, opalm, grapefruit, soursap, cedar and pine (the last two are different than we know, being construction wood). We use bamboo, an invasive grass, for all sorts of construction purposes in the garden. The concept of composting is taking off slowly. I made a "mistake" and used the phrase "vegetable matter" and Garnett took me literally and only put the remnants of vegetables in it. AAARRRGGGHHH.
Roof
I will go a bit out of sequence here, as the roof was the next to the last phase of necessary construction to illustrate a point. The roof at Casa Spiegel is an a frame. We have a front porch, facing the view, that is around 8 feet wide. I allowed the back to have a 4" overhang. Thus, if the interior is 20', plus 4 feet, plus 8 feet plus a 2 foot overhang, one arrives at 34 feet. I used 14 foot and 20 foot (IIRC) 2 x 8so tie into the ridge beams and plates. I picked double 2 x 6s to use as the plate (the part on top of the walls around the perimeter). Holes were drilled through the plate to allow the rebar to pass through and then threaded 3/8-16 and secured with wide washers and nuts. Concrete nails and bolts were also used to gfasten the plate. The 2 x 8s attached to the plate, as well as to the upright pillars.
I have to go now to speak with the admin types here about moving my father. Then a dip in the pool and I'll be back after lunch.
The locks - ah yes. I have a standing wager with the work crew that they cannot force our locks. I offer 70:1 odds, betting J vs US. So far, its like giving chess lessons IG at KR
We have a written list of what our caretaker is to do to earn his salary, plus a few bonus items. At the moment, my pissedoffedness is quite high, as concerns him. That is unfortunate, because up to now I have been the one who negotiated his "contract." the last was a three year deal and this is the last year. We eventually want our caretaker to reside on site, but it is too remote for his tastes at the moment - more importantly, it is too remote for his wife. The local route Taxis (a route taxi allows one to get from station to station for a remakably low sum. We can go the twoegs and 15 iles from the end of our road to the great beaches for under $2 US). Its getting to Prospect or Grange, 8/10 of a mile or 1.5 miles, that requires walking, as there are not enough customers at or end to make it a regular route. We can get special service for around and extra $3 0r 4, however.
Growing naturally on our proeerty are Mangoes, Limes, and some misc shade trees. We planted orange, pineapple, banana, guava, opalm, grapefruit, soursap, cedar and pine (the last two are different than we know, being construction wood). We use bamboo, an invasive grass, for all sorts of construction purposes in the garden. The concept of composting is taking off slowly. I made a "mistake" and used the phrase "vegetable matter" and Garnett took me literally and only put the remnants of vegetables in it. AAARRRGGGHHH.
Roof
I will go a bit out of sequence here, as the roof was the next to the last phase of necessary construction to illustrate a point. The roof at Casa Spiegel is an a frame. We have a front porch, facing the view, that is around 8 feet wide. I allowed the back to have a 4" overhang. Thus, if the interior is 20', plus 4 feet, plus 8 feet plus a 2 foot overhang, one arrives at 34 feet. I used 14 foot and 20 foot (IIRC) 2 x 8so tie into the ridge beams and plates. I picked double 2 x 6s to use as the plate (the part on top of the walls around the perimeter). Holes were drilled through the plate to allow the rebar to pass through and then threaded 3/8-16 and secured with wide washers and nuts. Concrete nails and bolts were also used to gfasten the plate. The 2 x 8s attached to the plate, as well as to the upright pillars.
I have to go now to speak with the admin types here about moving my father. Then a dip in the pool and I'll be back after lunch.
Edwin Haroldson
Loremaster
Master of the Mages' Guild
An ethical person does the right thing when no one is watching.
OOG - Charlie Spiegel - Kitchen Marshal
"War is a matter of vital importance to the State..."
- geezer

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17 years 11 months ago #2450
by geezer (geezer)
Edwin Haroldson
Loremaster
Master of the Mages' Guild
An ethical person does the right thing when no one is watching.
OOG - Charlie Spiegel - Kitchen Marshal
"War is a matter of vital importance to the State..."
Replied by geezer (geezer) on topic Jamaica: (Was - Re: Money, Taxes, and Rebates)
Selected my father's new apartment as well as sold his car. Busy afternoon.
Anyway, back to the roof. The 2x8s were attached to the plates with 3/8 -16 galvanized grade 8 lag bolts with nails and screws as well as the code required hurricane straps. Being that our walls are around 10 feet tall, we used 6" square x 8 foot long pillars at the perimeter of the front porch. A double set of 2 x 6 ran across the tops, to which the rafters were also bolted. Thus the roof is attached both to the house and the pillars. The building inspector (we were shocked that there was one) told us we had just changed the standards for single home consturction in Jamaica. Our house was presented at the annual contractors whatever in Kingston.
Anyway, when you have 66 feet to be covered by the pillars and the 2 x 6s, it is imperative that the boards do not all end at the same junctures. Jamaicans are pretty haphazard as to how they splice things, in that they would use the last 4" of a 2x6, and remove enough wood to make it a 1 x 6 for that 4". The underlying piece would be likewise worked, so that when laid upon each other, it would butt, splicing things. I explained the only place a splice cmay occur is directly and completely over a 6" square pillar. It seemed obvious to me that is the only way the structural integrity could be maintained.
Ah, time to take a break. Back later.
Anyway, back to the roof. The 2x8s were attached to the plates with 3/8 -16 galvanized grade 8 lag bolts with nails and screws as well as the code required hurricane straps. Being that our walls are around 10 feet tall, we used 6" square x 8 foot long pillars at the perimeter of the front porch. A double set of 2 x 6 ran across the tops, to which the rafters were also bolted. Thus the roof is attached both to the house and the pillars. The building inspector (we were shocked that there was one) told us we had just changed the standards for single home consturction in Jamaica. Our house was presented at the annual contractors whatever in Kingston.
Anyway, when you have 66 feet to be covered by the pillars and the 2 x 6s, it is imperative that the boards do not all end at the same junctures. Jamaicans are pretty haphazard as to how they splice things, in that they would use the last 4" of a 2x6, and remove enough wood to make it a 1 x 6 for that 4". The underlying piece would be likewise worked, so that when laid upon each other, it would butt, splicing things. I explained the only place a splice cmay occur is directly and completely over a 6" square pillar. It seemed obvious to me that is the only way the structural integrity could be maintained.
Ah, time to take a break. Back later.
Edwin Haroldson
Loremaster
Master of the Mages' Guild
An ethical person does the right thing when no one is watching.
OOG - Charlie Spiegel - Kitchen Marshal
"War is a matter of vital importance to the State..."
- geezer

- Platinum Member

- Posts: 4349
- Thank Yous: 448
17 years 11 months ago #2451
by geezer (geezer)
Edwin Haroldson
Loremaster
Master of the Mages' Guild
An ethical person does the right thing when no one is watching.
OOG - Charlie Spiegel - Kitchen Marshal
"War is a matter of vital importance to the State..."
Replied by geezer (geezer) on topic Jamaica: (Was - Re: Money, Taxes, and Rebates)
I drew a diagram of how things were to be spiced. I watched Coke (Erol Coke is the name of the contractor, and I use the word loosely. Coordinator might be better) watch Calli, the lead carpenter do the first few pices correctly. Then I had to scare up some material. My hemoglobin, unknown to me, was low, so I was tired. Things were not helped by the ganja I had tried, along with being up late the night before at a concert. I napped in my chair. Waking upo around 4 PM to be shown the work that had been done, including putting iup around 10 of the rafters. Naturally, the splicing was done incorrectly. All assured me it was just as strong.
Using such Jamaican idioms as bumbleclot, mixed liberally with a few Americanisms, like incompetanes, laced with the very British Bloody idiots, convinced them that I firmly believed they were mistaken. I thjen grabbed 4 pieces of 1/2 x 4 x 8 and made the last 4 inches 1/4 and made two splices, one of which I kept screwed together and hanging over nothing, the other which I put over a post. Grabbing several cement blocks, I started piling them on the free splice. I also put Jango, who weighs in at around 250 on top of the blocks. No surprise, the splice broke - to be more accurate, it gave way and tore. Naturally when twice the blocks Jango, Coke and I were on the other, it sagged a bit, but held wonderfully.
"I figure" I intoned in my best why does no one ever listen to the white guy voice "that it will take you about one days to undo things, plus you have to replace the 2 x 6s and maybe the 6" square pieces, because unless the lagbolts are in exactly the same place, nothing will hold. I don't have the money for that, but I guess if you work for free it can be worked out." Everyone knew the materials, being wood, cost more than the labor. We can carry the excess over to the next time. What really burns me is that I will not be able to finsih this trip, as there will flat out not be enough time."
Calli, Coke and Michael (the second best carpenter) had the good graces to look horrified at this pronouncement. They could not very well deny the weakness of their splices. Calli, who remembered how I had come up with a fix for the nonexistant 22 footers asked if I had any ideas. Since my idea consisted of shooting them, they were not really interested. However...if we got 1/4 thick steel by 4 inches wide and around three feet long and bolted them top and bottom where the bad splices were, structually it would be as strong. It would look like shit warmed over, but it would be sufficiently strong. Naturally, I did point out that this would require the entire 66 feet to be encased on two sides (bottom and that facing the house) with matching pine, the labor and material for which I will not pay a cent since I only pay for screwups if y ou do it my way. No grumbling, but we agreed to deduct the cost of the new wood from future labor. Maybe tomorrow I will explain how I had a 1" dip in the roof, and how that had to be fixed.
More about Erol Coke, who is a decent human being, a knowedgable builder, and a horrible estimaot of materials. He is also a pastor of the Pell River Seventh Day Adventist Church. In front of the entire crew he once told me that if anyone asked who he was here to see, just say Coke. This was way to easy to pass up, so I said for him to expect a visit from the DEA. Jamaicans all know about the Drug Enforcment Agency. In response to why I said that when going through customs I was asked what the purpose of my visit was. In reply, I said "Coke." When asked if I knew where to find coke in Jaqmaica, I answered "This Saturday, I have it on good authority that there will be 60 kilos of cCoke in the Pell River Seventh Day Adventist Church." He eventually realoized I was pulling his leg. However, last Spring Break, when Tina, Jake, his friend Norman (Matthew and Nicholas' older brother, Norm's eldest) I asked Coke if his 18 year old daughtrer had a hot friend. Coke, falling into my trap, assuming I was interested, said yes and why? I mentioned it would be nice if the two yong ladies would take the boys to some Jamaican entertainment away from the tourists.
Coke "You know I would have to kill you Charlie."
Me "Don't you trust your daughter, Erol?"
Coke "Its not my daughter..."
Me "Are you saying my sone and his friend are not gentlemen?"
Gosh, I love yanking his chain.
Tomorrow, more plus some Jewish Haiku
Using such Jamaican idioms as bumbleclot, mixed liberally with a few Americanisms, like incompetanes, laced with the very British Bloody idiots, convinced them that I firmly believed they were mistaken. I thjen grabbed 4 pieces of 1/2 x 4 x 8 and made the last 4 inches 1/4 and made two splices, one of which I kept screwed together and hanging over nothing, the other which I put over a post. Grabbing several cement blocks, I started piling them on the free splice. I also put Jango, who weighs in at around 250 on top of the blocks. No surprise, the splice broke - to be more accurate, it gave way and tore. Naturally when twice the blocks Jango, Coke and I were on the other, it sagged a bit, but held wonderfully.
"I figure" I intoned in my best why does no one ever listen to the white guy voice "that it will take you about one days to undo things, plus you have to replace the 2 x 6s and maybe the 6" square pieces, because unless the lagbolts are in exactly the same place, nothing will hold. I don't have the money for that, but I guess if you work for free it can be worked out." Everyone knew the materials, being wood, cost more than the labor. We can carry the excess over to the next time. What really burns me is that I will not be able to finsih this trip, as there will flat out not be enough time."
Calli, Coke and Michael (the second best carpenter) had the good graces to look horrified at this pronouncement. They could not very well deny the weakness of their splices. Calli, who remembered how I had come up with a fix for the nonexistant 22 footers asked if I had any ideas. Since my idea consisted of shooting them, they were not really interested. However...if we got 1/4 thick steel by 4 inches wide and around three feet long and bolted them top and bottom where the bad splices were, structually it would be as strong. It would look like shit warmed over, but it would be sufficiently strong. Naturally, I did point out that this would require the entire 66 feet to be encased on two sides (bottom and that facing the house) with matching pine, the labor and material for which I will not pay a cent since I only pay for screwups if y ou do it my way. No grumbling, but we agreed to deduct the cost of the new wood from future labor. Maybe tomorrow I will explain how I had a 1" dip in the roof, and how that had to be fixed.
More about Erol Coke, who is a decent human being, a knowedgable builder, and a horrible estimaot of materials. He is also a pastor of the Pell River Seventh Day Adventist Church. In front of the entire crew he once told me that if anyone asked who he was here to see, just say Coke. This was way to easy to pass up, so I said for him to expect a visit from the DEA. Jamaicans all know about the Drug Enforcment Agency. In response to why I said that when going through customs I was asked what the purpose of my visit was. In reply, I said "Coke." When asked if I knew where to find coke in Jaqmaica, I answered "This Saturday, I have it on good authority that there will be 60 kilos of cCoke in the Pell River Seventh Day Adventist Church." He eventually realoized I was pulling his leg. However, last Spring Break, when Tina, Jake, his friend Norman (Matthew and Nicholas' older brother, Norm's eldest) I asked Coke if his 18 year old daughtrer had a hot friend. Coke, falling into my trap, assuming I was interested, said yes and why? I mentioned it would be nice if the two yong ladies would take the boys to some Jamaican entertainment away from the tourists.
Coke "You know I would have to kill you Charlie."
Me "Don't you trust your daughter, Erol?"
Coke "Its not my daughter..."
Me "Are you saying my sone and his friend are not gentlemen?"
Gosh, I love yanking his chain.
Tomorrow, more plus some Jewish Haiku
Edwin Haroldson
Loremaster
Master of the Mages' Guild
An ethical person does the right thing when no one is watching.
OOG - Charlie Spiegel - Kitchen Marshal
"War is a matter of vital importance to the State..."
- geezer

- Platinum Member

- Posts: 4349
- Thank Yous: 448
17 years 11 months ago #2463
by geezer (geezer)
Edwin Haroldson
Loremaster
Master of the Mages' Guild
An ethical person does the right thing when no one is watching.
OOG - Charlie Spiegel - Kitchen Marshal
"War is a matter of vital importance to the State..."
Replied by geezer (geezer) on topic Jamaica: (Was - Re: Money, Taxes, and Rebates)
Not only does each couple have its own dwelling (at 1000 square interior feet plus some lower level footage which will total another 250 or so plus a huge deck at Casa Spiegel, ours has the largest footprint) we all have plenty of personal space. The three bungalos? already up are in completely different styles, having in common steell reingofreced concrete walls. Our roof is wood with asphalt shingles, while Dimock's and Laughlin's have a compositem roof which looks like ceramic tile, but is not. Casa Spiegel has lots of wood on the interior, and even the exterior (three coats of neutral preservative followed by 4 coats of marine spar varnish, thank you - I know it was done properly because I applied it). The Dimocks made their arches out of concrete (STEEL REINFORCED IS A GIVEN WITH REFERRING TO CONCRETE). The Laighlins did the same, although their 750 square feet is one huge room with the bathroom closet walled off. Who knows what Dwarf and Estelle will do, but they are considering a slightly pitched concete roof. It can work, and will be quite the place to sit and watch sunrises or sunsets. There have been a few shots of the westward view on the links.
We have taken down two trees to date, one of them being a "bad" mango and the other heavily damaged in a storm. As Tiona said, cane is king in that area and we are working on containing the invasive bamboo and eliminating the cane. Goats, if properly tethered are wonderful at keeping growth down. Of course, they would rather eat our plantings (for forms sake, we have a around 150 feet of our frontage fenced, with 4 foot high poles with three wtrands of barbed wire. The wire keeps out the goats and cattle, as the poles are sunk into concrete. We planted nice stuff outside the wire, like bougainvilla and passion fruit. The growth is up to 3 feet at this time. We explained, nicely, that continued incursions by goats will result in either confiscation and involvment of the authorities, or curried goat. Goatnapping is a serious offense in Jamaica, but they know we caqn destroy the evidence in a day.
Remind me to tell you of the nice Christian lady, Miss Sonia, who is also one of the best cooks on the island, and the "housewarming" party we had. Very old testament with the goats. Sspashing their blood to the four corners of the structure to be was very Santaria, but she was convinced it was not Voodoo, but Christian. Either way, the goat tasted fine and as I consumed mannish water, I was accepted as a Jamaican. Mannish water, for those who desire to know, contains anything that does not go into the curry, such as eyes, ears, tail, internal organs, etc. Made into a soup/stew, it is quite tasty, so long as one does not try to identify the particular tidbit being consumred.
Lunch/dip in pool/move father three hour stint coming up. So far, disposed of around 10 cubic feet of stuff.
We have taken down two trees to date, one of them being a "bad" mango and the other heavily damaged in a storm. As Tiona said, cane is king in that area and we are working on containing the invasive bamboo and eliminating the cane. Goats, if properly tethered are wonderful at keeping growth down. Of course, they would rather eat our plantings (for forms sake, we have a around 150 feet of our frontage fenced, with 4 foot high poles with three wtrands of barbed wire. The wire keeps out the goats and cattle, as the poles are sunk into concrete. We planted nice stuff outside the wire, like bougainvilla and passion fruit. The growth is up to 3 feet at this time. We explained, nicely, that continued incursions by goats will result in either confiscation and involvment of the authorities, or curried goat. Goatnapping is a serious offense in Jamaica, but they know we caqn destroy the evidence in a day.
Remind me to tell you of the nice Christian lady, Miss Sonia, who is also one of the best cooks on the island, and the "housewarming" party we had. Very old testament with the goats. Sspashing their blood to the four corners of the structure to be was very Santaria, but she was convinced it was not Voodoo, but Christian. Either way, the goat tasted fine and as I consumed mannish water, I was accepted as a Jamaican. Mannish water, for those who desire to know, contains anything that does not go into the curry, such as eyes, ears, tail, internal organs, etc. Made into a soup/stew, it is quite tasty, so long as one does not try to identify the particular tidbit being consumred.
Lunch/dip in pool/move father three hour stint coming up. So far, disposed of around 10 cubic feet of stuff.
Edwin Haroldson
Loremaster
Master of the Mages' Guild
An ethical person does the right thing when no one is watching.
OOG - Charlie Spiegel - Kitchen Marshal
"War is a matter of vital importance to the State..."
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