Long sword VS Katana

A 60-65# bow will send an arrow clean through the abdomen of a full grown deer.  A bow of 100# -125# will place an arrow at least 24-28 inches into the belly of an elephant all the way to the feathers  I am certain there are scientists and bow hunters out there that could cite the physics in Pounds per sq inch of that teeny little point striking the average armor plate at about 500fps

I agree the type of arrow head would have an effect on the depth of penetration since, most are designed to slice blood vesels and organs as they enter and exit leaving a badly bleeding mortally wounded knight who will still run a few more yards or until the archer puts one right in the eye slit

End of story

Call an Archer a chicken or not, the purpose was to Kill the enemy the fastest way possible

And whoever said the fight would be Fair??

And the real Katana experts are taught to block with the back of the blade, not the edge Because they would have to grind out the nicks and repolish the blade in order to shave the next day

Dont forget the lever thingy.....PSI which had more PSI

I am watching and looking for facts.....not seeing many boys and girls

Alex and Dave gets a star!!!!!  Also Dave is 100% right about Katana blocks.....I see who studies vs studies.

Penetration facts will be coming I consulted with a friend of mine at "RudderBow" He makes phenomenal bows of many different woods, styles, types, as recreations of European and Far East as well as Native American bowsbesides

Wasn't the purpose of a "Targe" to be able to penetrate armor maille leather  much the same way as an arrow but from more brute strenght , Still makes for huge PSI

With Archery, one of the other main factors was also the angles on which the arrow landed.  It's been a few years, but I watched trials with an English longbow against a sheet of steel - if the arrow hit the steel straight on (i.e. - a flat breastplate), it would penetrate.  If it hit at an angle, the majority of the force of the shot would send the arrow ricocheting, and not go into penetrating.  As armor evolved, it developed more angular structures to help ward off arrows long enough to close.

- it may look like it's holding up, but watch the whole thing.

Wasn't the purpose of a "Targe" to be able to penetrate armor maille leather  much the same way as an arrow but from more brute strenght , Still makes for huge PSI

I don't know about the Targe part, but basic physics - the same amount of force, applied across a smaller area, will exert more pressure per square inch.  So a point (as opposed to a blunt surface) will have more penetrating force behind it, even if it still has the same amount of kinetic energy overall.  If you want to stun something without penetrating it, you use a blunt or large area surface when striking, or even something soft that will shape itself on impact to spread out the energy (like a sap, filled with sand or shot).  This assumes, of course, you're not just going for pure blunt trauma like a mace.

Archery is my weak spot as well, but I've studies it insofar as it applies to penetrating thru various armors and how it was applied in combat in various parts of the ancient world. One thing that I learned is that much of the equivilant draw strength was what was measured based on distance and elevation. Meaning, distance to target had an impact (naturally) on the power, and a common tactic was the high angled volley. Now this may all seem rather remedial, but consider that gravity enters into the equation. At great distance it takes greater bow strength to achieve x penetration. However you can gain a far large equivilant strength factor when you allow gravity to take over. The loss in velocity to achieve height and distance is more than overcome wth the drop from that height and achieves a comparative equivilance in the bow strength that would be needed to get that penetration. You don't need an achilles bow with 18/00 str, but the end result gets you there. Where armor is a factor, and this is paramount, is that the impact occurs at the top most portion of the target, where vitals (head, shoulder, penetration into the torso) are far harder to protect and injury of any kind is more extreme.

Now Secarious, you hit it on the head in terms of the asian arrows. Even euro arrows glanced off, or didn't penetrate deeply enough through heavy breast plates, supported by gamibison and chain, in most cases, at least till tactics and arrow points evolved in the later years. Even then, it took many arrows to fell a well armored foe (though when you consider hundreds of archers, you often got enough hits over numerous volleys to achieve this). The impacts were not often straight on at the breast plate, the kill shots or the equivilant were across the upper 45 degree angle of the torso, meaning volley shots. A single archer, with lesser arrow technology, was simply not the answer. It is for this reason that the armsmen's polearm was created. Archers would not actually kill the riders, they would kill the mounts, then footmen would swarm the field and use these massive weapons to overwhelm the outnumbered (and likley bespeckled) remaining horseman and finish them off. This was actually what happened in Agincourt too (common misconception was that the French knights were massacred by arrows. In a way they were, but it wasn't the full story).

Wow how this thread has evolved! I didn't even comment on your obviously extensive training Otagiri. I know some pretty prominant practioners that study under Hatsumi-San, I wonder if you've trained with them. We should talk. I wonder if you have any updates on tensions revolving around succession. Would love your take on that. Better I should elaborate in person on that though.

Charlie, my old school strategy gamers all live way too many hours from here to gather, and its been ages, but I'd love to arrange to join you if you are setting something like this up. I'd need to learn the rules (relearn some, but I think this might be a system I've not tried before). I'd be thrilled. I've already gotten the warning from the Mrs not to even consider purchasing stuff though! lol She knows how I get with my hobbies (can't you all tell?). I'll pm you though.