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28 Aug 2014 20:44 #1 by Simon (BigZ)
Andorran Prayers and legality was created by Simon (BigZ)
What about the power that Enaxians can wield to stop those caught in a rage? It accomplishes the same effect but is from a different god.
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28 Aug 2014 21:43 #2 by Bladesworn (Bladesworn)
Replied by Bladesworn (Bladesworn) on topic Andorran Prayers and legality
I wish for a clarification... are you saying the particular Andorran prayer that was supposedly used to calm someone down was not in violation of any laws of Travance and/or Kormyre? Or ANY & ALL Andorran prayers are not in violation of any/all laws of Travance and/or Kormyre?
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28 Aug 2014 22:33 #3 by Grimkjell Eirson (BillHannings)
Replied by Grimkjell Eirson (BillHannings) on topic Andorran Prayers and legality
Zelretch. I will consult the legal scholars and give you an answer when I am able. I will say it is unwise to bring an ulfhednar out of his rage prematurely, because if he is still raging, there are still enemies left to be cut down.

Tyran. Any and all.
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28 Aug 2014 22:42 #4 by Grimkjell Eirson (BillHannings)
Replied by Grimkjell Eirson (BillHannings) on topic Andorran Prayers and legality
A clarification is in order after a missive from Templar Nightwing, specifically Rayven. The Andorran prayers that are covered under this are specifically the ones of the compassion domain. An andorran who uses a Luminiscent beam to strike someone down still has to answer to the law, and her god.
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28 Aug 2014 22:49 #5 by Bladesworn (Bladesworn)
Replied by Bladesworn (Bladesworn) on topic Andorran Prayers and legality
I was going to mention the same thing, that Andorrans have access to spells that can hurt. As for Templar Nightwing... I think there is only 1 Templar Nightwing, so it specifically has to be Rayven. Unless of course, I have been gone so long from Travance that there is more than 1 Templar Nightwing.

As for the prayers of the Compassion domain... Friendship. This is not a prayer as benign as it may seem. The particulars are vague to me, but this prayer will make someone treat another like a true friend. True friends are a rare thing. True friends will be cherished, highly regarded, even protected. True friends can ask favors. To make someone believe that another person is their true friend is not something to be taken lightly.
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28 Aug 2014 23:02 #6 by Caldor Eirson (Caldor)
Replied by Caldor Eirson (Caldor) on topic Andorran Prayers and legality
There are in fact two Templars Nightwing, and they are husband and wife.

Caldor
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28 Aug 2014 23:13 #7 by Bladesworn (Bladesworn)
Replied by Bladesworn (Bladesworn) on topic Andorran Prayers and legality
I stand corrected about the number of Templars named Nightwing then. I have been away from Travance for a long while. This must get rectified.

As for the Andorran prayers & their standing within the laws... I will go by what your brother has decreed until otherwise told. However, I ask that all the prayers Andorrans have at their disposal be carefully scrutinized. While they are one of the most peaceful, & benign of the clergy... even they have assets that can be misused.
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29 Aug 2014 01:47 #8 by Cecilia Mercier (jsin)
Replied by Cecilia Mercier (jsin) on topic Andorran Prayers and legality
Why is it okay for a prayer to be used to effect someone's mind when if I - as a mage - used a spell to the same effect outside of combat, I'd more than likely be in serious trouble with the guard?

Is it because the word compassion is used to describe the domain of the spell? Does the suggestion that one is of good will make the fact that someone's mind is being meddled with against their will okay?


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29 Aug 2014 03:43 #9 by Alexandre Blythewood (Eleventh Phoenix)
Replied by Alexandre Blythewood (Eleventh Phoenix) on topic Andorran Prayers and legality
The Gods of Living are a natural part of our wyrld. We call upon them, and they use theyr power on our behalf.

Magic is not for mortal kind. That you practice it is unnatural and dangerus and selfish and reckless. Every time you incant your maleficarum, you put eech and every person in this world in danger. You risk braking the wyrld.

Let only the Wyrdkind call upon such power. It is not for you.
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29 Aug 2014 07:08 - 29 Aug 2014 07:17 #10 by Narcis (ChrisR)
Replied by Narcis (ChrisR) on topic Andorran Prayers and legality
Cecilia Mercier,

You say that now. Perhaps I will make sure that any raging or dominated person who may be coming after you is allowed to stay that way. When you then complain that no one did anything to stop them I will quote your questioning of the legality of Andorran prayers.

Realize, I say this as someone whose mind has been infiltrated more times than someone who has been in Travance for a decade. I have been turned against my allies more times than any one person could count. I have been conscious and have been able to watch as my body attacked those I have emotions for. I have been conscious and unable to stop great pain and suffering from happening to me because of having my mind infiltrated. My mind has been invaded so many times that I currently cannot tell what part of me is me, or the remnants of demons or necromancy.

Perhaps I would take your argument more seriously if I knew you weren't questioning it because you are too biased in this ruling. Next time we fight warriors of Chaos or Demons, I urge you to let your mind be invaded. See how it feels to come to and know that you have brought harm against those you have emotions for. Or watch as you let someone who has been altered bring harm against you. They will show no mercy for you in their altered state and if you end up relying on your magic to enfeeble or dominate them, you will be in the same boat as the Andorrans.

While I generally appreciate the questioning of rules and laws, this one does not need time wasted on questioning it. Put yourself to better use Cecilia, you have much more in store for you than sitting here questioning rules that aren't worth your time.

May you follow your true path,
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Last edit: 29 Aug 2014 07:17 by Narcis (ChrisR). Reason: because 7 am is too early for me to make Serious Ava posts
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29 Aug 2014 07:58 #11 by Lucien Belfast (Lucien Belfast)
Replied by Lucien Belfast (Lucien Belfast) on topic Andorran Prayers and legality
Dear Miss Miss Mercier, Dear Ava

It is good to question, especially when you have that feeling, like a stone resting on the top of your heart. That is a feeling of injustice. You must always be brave and speak when you feel this.

We are asking questions now about miracles of Andorra. These are not spells, but miracles, like gifts from Andorra, to a mortal, and Andorra chooses some of us, such as my sister in the light, Mother Angeliana.

Although I know in my heart and from experience that an Andorran, be it Mother Gwynedd or Angeliana would not intentionally use their access to the miraculous to be deceptive or to cause harm. Sometimes that is irrelevant, sometimes we are within our rights to feel rage and grief. I know I have felt that before and the idea of being pacified, even if by a miracle would feel insulting and invasive.

To make my point, no Andorran working with compassion in their heart will be causing you harm, it will not alter your memories or change you in any way, apart from letting you glimpse a feeling of inner peace. That said, I should remind all of my fellow Clergy, myself very much included that just because our god gives us a purpose in this world, and grants us access to their most sacred miracles, does not mean we are entitled to enjoin others to these miracles.

I will never lay my hands on an unwilling person, or cast a miracle on them, except in the case of saving their life, or preventing them from doing harm to another. I believe that should be a policy for any of us in the Church of Light and I know the vast majority of us already hold this policy.
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29 Aug 2014 10:59 #12 by Mordra GraLucia (Mordra)
Replied by Mordra GraLucia (Mordra) on topic Andorran Prayers and legality
As a study of law, and by no means a Master nor in any high legal position within Travance, I would like to move this discussion less in the direction of power origins and more to the actual question of legality.

As per the laws of Travance, none may control the mind, body, nor emotions of another except with the explicit sanction of a Lord or Baron or if the subject be willing.

Forcing someone into a friendship that is not natural to them is illegal.
Forcing someone to act as your personal protector against their will is illegal.

Those who wield the power do to so, such as Enaxian clergy like myself, must understand the consequences of their actions. If these actions are taken in defense of oneself or a third party then it is perfectly legal to do.

The question of ending a rage is an interesting one. As I was not present during the mentioned event I can only provide scenarios. Should an enemy be raging and attempting to harm another it is acceptable to force them out of their rage. If an ally is in the throes of rage and you choose to end it then you can be subject to the laws of Travance. You have prevented your ally from defending you, thus putting other subjects at risk. However, if you were under the assumption that their rage could quickly turn against your advantage and you felt that ending the rage was the best option then your defense can hold in court. The laws of the land are very clear but each situation is not.
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29 Aug 2014 11:30 #13 by geezer (geezer)
Replied by geezer (geezer) on topic Andorran Prayers and legality
Mordra's assertion that " If these actions are taken in defense of oneself or a third party then it is perfectly legal to do" is correct only if the person so controlled is one of the ones seeking to harm the caster.

It has long been established law that one can employ any form of attack against those who knowingly seek to harm others outside the law. One is also allowed to employ any means to stop those who are forced to act against their wills, so long as one stops short of causing their death. There are nuances, yes, but all have to do with situational concerns.
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29 Aug 2014 15:09 #14 by Verrill Lebastion (Wellby)
Replied by Verrill Lebastion (Wellby) on topic Andorran Prayers and legality
The legality of this issue is fairly straight forward. Be it a "miracle" or a "spell" or a fanciful arcane song and dance, It is illegal to alter the will of another. Divinity really does not play into the matter. The law is stated as thus;

None shall torture another, nor cause the insanity of another, nor control the mind, body, or emotions of another excepting with the explicit sanction of a Lord or the Baron, or if the subject be - of free and clear spirit - willing.

Whosoever breaks with this law shall be fined between ten and twenty gold pieces, one half of which the Barony will remit to the victim, and will spend from one to three months in the dungeon. If the victim of the crime is an Officer of the Barony, then the convicted will be fined between twenty and fifty gold pieces, one half of which the Barony will remit to the victim, and will spend from three to six months in the dungeon. If the victim of the crime is of noble title, then the convicted will be publicly executed, will be stripped of all belongings, and upon the decision of the Baron may be exiled or obliterated. If the convicted has broken with this law before, then the convicted will be publicly executed, will be stripped of all belongings, and upon the decision of the Baron may be exiled or obliterated.

In Unyielding Patience and Prudence,
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29 Aug 2014 15:25 - 29 Aug 2014 15:25 #15 by Rudolf (Rudolf)
Replied by Rudolf (Rudolf) on topic Andorran Prayers and legality
Verrill Lebastion,

Unless you have been empowered by the Office of the Magistrate to do so, cease your proclamations on this matter immediately.

If and when you appear before the Magistrate and the case has been decided, then, and only then, may you feel free to continue to comment on this matter.

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Last edit: 29 Aug 2014 15:25 by Rudolf (Rudolf).
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29 Aug 2014 18:19 - 29 Aug 2014 18:28 #16 by Cecilia Mercier (jsin)
Replied by Cecilia Mercier (jsin) on topic Andorran Prayers and legality
Pardon my tone but, I feel as if my inquiry was misinterpreted or perhaps that my meaning was just simply ignored because I am considered to be biased.

As a citizen of Travance, who has had to use both my magicks and my fists to defend myself and others of Travance, I understand that in battle or out of self defense that one should be perfectly capable to do what is necessary to neutralize a target.

I thought it would be a simple common understanding that I was referring to the use of such things in a casual setting -- such as making someone (who while you may think is being irrational, you would know very well is not at risk of becoming a threat to the safety or well being of others) more agreeable or to quell their anger because it would make a social interaction run more smoothly.

And as I have made Travance my home, it is very much in my interest to pay attention to what actions and behaviors it's laws and rules do and do not protect me from.

Sincerely,
Cecilia Mercier
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Last edit: 29 Aug 2014 18:28 by Cecilia Mercier (jsin).
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29 Aug 2014 18:38 #17 by Bladesworn (Bladesworn)
Replied by Bladesworn (Bladesworn) on topic Andorran Prayers and legality
I only have just noticed now, that the Lieutenant's original posting has been removed. So allow me to ask again...

Are ALL Andorran prayers under the Compassion domain "immune" (I dislike that term, but I can think of no other that matches what I'm thinking) to the laws of Travance & Kormyre?
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29 Aug 2014 21:48 #18 by Rudolf (Rudolf)
Replied by Rudolf (Rudolf) on topic Andorran Prayers and legality
Squire Radley and the others who have commented upon this subject,

When the Great Council next convenes,this matter should be discussed. However, until such time, I ask for your patience. When the Great Council arrives at a decision, that decision will be announced to all and you shall have your answer.

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