PvP in LARP

Fenri Kantaris wrote: I meant realism within KR in regards to interacting with people.

And KR gives that realism. You are free to talk to whomever you want and say whatever you want. And you are free to react however you want, within the constraints of the system.

Fenri Kantaris wrote: We can't all play carebears, some people just want to watch the world burn, some people know that you can be pulled through the Phokus and want to teach a lesson to someone by making them take that trip (and hope that Soul Harvesters get to them first).

Except that doesn't teach anyone a lesson IG, it just pisses people off OOG.

PvP as a result of an argument or disagreement between characters will stifle role-playing and make players shy away from talking to others whom they do not know for fear of character death. We are all supposed to be in this together, as a community both IG and OOG... why deliberately ruin it for someone?

Fenri Kantaris wrote: If I, as Mike, were to go out and steal someones computer I would most certainly expect to get stabbed or beat up or something, those consequences should apply for Fenri as well.

Except you, as Mike, can't look at someone and judge how powerful they are. At KR, in the game setting, you most certainly can since PvP is as much an IG calculation as it is an OOG one.

If I, as a level 30 warrior character, happen to get pissed off at a brand new character, I know full well that I can decimate a level 5, regardless of class. I know I probably have twice, if not three times the hit points and swing twice as hard. I know that I have Superior tag skills that they can't defend. I know that I will win... everytime. That isn't even mentioning skills like Disguise and Contacts and Alibi that Rogues have access to and can all but guarantee you don't get caught after the fact.

In the real world however, I can look at someone who I think is weaker than me but for all I know, they are a blackbelt in Krav Maga, or are an ex Army Ranger, or have a knife or a gun. And it doesn't matter how much (or little) they are trained, since with one lucky hit it's all over.

KR is a game of rules and mechanics that the real world just doesn't have.

When you think about another character as their card ... then you are meta-gaming. Meta-gaming + PVP is a pretty good recipe to equal griefing, or to set yourself up to never challenge the bigger card if you are the smaller card.

last event there was an RP showdown between a light clergy no combat list holding priest and a dark clergy much death wielding priest. The dark clergy could have squashed the light clergy like a gnat. But instead he stood down. After the event the players talked about how awesome it was. This is exemplary RP that got nowhere near griefing.

If you truly want to RP, leave the cards out of it.

Dennis Brand wrote:
If I, as a level 30 warrior character, happen to get pissed off at a brand new character, I know full well that I can decimate a level 5, regardless of class. I know I probably have twice, if not three times the hit points and swing twice as hard. I know that I have Superior tag skills that they can't defend. I know that I will win... everytime. That isn't even mentioning skills like Disguise and Contacts and Alibi that Rogues have access to and can all but guarantee you don't get caught after the fact.

In the real world however, I can look at someone who I think is weaker than me but for all I know, they are a blackbelt in Krav Maga, or are an ex Army Ranger, or have a knife or a gun. And it doesn't matter how much (or little) they are trained, since with one lucky hit it's all over.

KR is a game of rules and mechanics that the real world just doesn't have.

All too true. It is a game of rules and mechanics. PvP is going to happen- the rules are actually written to allow for it and for it to happen anytime and often but it is on the player base on if they are going to be that way or not. 95% of them, PvP will be incidental, if if happens.

Unfortunately, there are players here that will take that OOC knowledge of PC level and use their much more powerful card to bully the smaller/newer PC's here.

So yeah, PvP happens... very true. And as much as it is not talked about, there *are* card bullies among the player base which is where problems with PvP really start. For the most part, folks who have been here a little while know who the bullies are and when they see the obvious bullying happen, step up to end it or interfere with it... (which is a bit of a far cry from RL stopping bullies but then, a bullying victim has a better chance of fighting back if they choose to, in my opinion). Here... unless there is a marshal nearby that believes it to be a case of card-bully PvP, there is no recourse other than bitching about it, getting a posse together for protection, just dealing with it or not playing the game.

Even when the PvP Card Bully is caught, repercussions have a chance of not happening, for whatever reason (busy marshal, backburner the case for later and then forgotten, the perp whining his way out of trouble, etc...). Its a sad truth of ANY social game- more so with Larp I think, than any other social game. I saw this a lot in OWbN... and avoided games because of it. (btw- I lost two PC's to OOC shenanigans/bullying in the Org; one of the reasons why I have chosen not to return to it)

I've seen PvP/Card Bullying so bad to some players, it has colored the judgment of those people towards the fairness and even-handed marshaling/Storytelling of all larps in the negative. And I want you to know this is a hard thing to sell to some folks, that KR is not like some of the other groups out there.

And for the Most Part, the folks who play this game and the people who run it are awesome at keeping the crappy stuff from happening.

I *KNOW* KR does NOT tolerate the card-bully/needless PvP... but I also know sometimes the checks on bad apples get circumvented. It gets bad when its the same person flipping the bird to accepted social niceties and inferred rules without punishment or correction. It is that which can create a negative atmosphere or impression. Same goes with the Social Justice Warriors out there... which is also a form of PvP bullying- mostly on the OOC level... but it or the most part is dealt with and dealt with well at KR- for which I applaud the staff for dealing with.

AND that is where the problem with PvP lies, I believe and why its such a tough and touchy subject. When a higher goes after a lower (or a Marshal after a player), is it happenstance (as in most cases) or is it card bullying (the rest of the cases... which is more common than anyone would like.) and is it Malicious in nature? Maliciousness and Card Bullying are usually hand in hand but not always. The importance is knowing if its meant to be mean or not. Hard line to find/delineate and I am not certain where the line is.

Are you?

This whole thread is, I believe, one of the reasons that James recently changed the opening ceremonies talks to be focused on our Community Statement posts.

www.knightrealms.com/forum/Straight-Talk...nity-statements.html

To help people realize what kind of game that we on the staff want KR to be and I believe most of the players want this kind of game too.

It takes all of us to work towards those goals, but it is work worth putting in.

Yeah, James and the rest of High Staff (and the marshals in general) work hard to make sure that PvP is limited and that needless PvP is squashed, especially when it's against new players or its excessive. (I've been at game only 6 months and I know of two cases since I got here of James stepping in on PvP and saying "this stops now")

I think one of the most important thing with PVP is the idea of IG and OOG separation. Players involved in PVP need to check up on one another out of game afterwards, often times after lay-off, or sometimes right after the pvp thing happens, and make sure that both of them are ok, and that ig conflict does not, and will not, translate into oog conflict. Last thing we need is players not liking each other just because of an ig altercation. And same the other way around. Don't make an out of game conflict into an In game one. Seen that happen too. It's not pretty. If you're going to pvp someone's character check up on them, and make sure the line between out of game and in-game is clearly drawn, and that there's no real life hard feelings. I would honestly recommend that if your character has an issue with another character, make sure the player knows out of game, so there are no hard feelings.