Body Ratio Adjustment
26 Feb 2014 17:11 #3
by Kleidin (Kleidin)
Replied by Kleidin (Kleidin) on topic Body Ratio Adjustment
I think all points spent in a class should count. If casting points are to count, then crafting points should as well.
It is only fair
It is only fair
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| Lady Kleidin du Tenkukai Weaveforger Laurent-Belmont of Kaladonia Master Witch Hunter, and Elder Druid OOG: Diane Sodher |
26 Feb 2014 18:47 #6
by GJSchaller (GJSchaller)
Replied by GJSchaller (GJSchaller) on topic Body Ratio Adjustment
"Casting Points" is Faith, Magic, Psi, Spell Song, Druid... in other words, everything BUT Crafting Points.
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Lord Gideon Weaveforger of Kaladonia Steward of Elvalion OOG: Geoffrey Schaller |
26 Feb 2014 19:55 - 26 Feb 2014 20:03 #9
by JTinney (Swordsaint)
Father Duncan MacKenzie
Templar-High Priest of Brazen
Chaplain, Bloodspirits Mercenary Company
Janos Beecham (alt)
Dragoon of No Importance
John Tinney
Safety Marshal/ EMT
Replied by JTinney (Swordsaint) on topic Body Ratio Adjustment
indeed...
Casters are already fairly "squishy" enough.... this makes them even more so.
I know spells and protections help.... but there are always ways around such things. To borrow an old D&D analogy- its bad enough a common housecat can usually kill a mage... but this change brings them down to having common rat have a chance of pulling it off.
Its definitely Food for thought... and brings up two fairly solid questions:
1- If casting points and crafting points are NOT counted, how much does it change things from just before the re-coding?
2- How much of a change does having the crafting points count same as Casting points do to crafters?
Yes... as a Ranger, I am a caster too... but its minor parlour tricks compared to Druids. I took a decent hit with this on both Armor Multiplier (I now have less armor protection than I had before the system changed) and Body ratios...and I don't have much casting power to speak of.
I'll play it either way- I really have no problems with doing so (I always forgot to use Armor points anyway..
).... but I do have concerns for other PC's.
Casters are already fairly "squishy" enough.... this makes them even more so.
I know spells and protections help.... but there are always ways around such things. To borrow an old D&D analogy- its bad enough a common housecat can usually kill a mage... but this change brings them down to having common rat have a chance of pulling it off.
Its definitely Food for thought... and brings up two fairly solid questions:
1- If casting points and crafting points are NOT counted, how much does it change things from just before the re-coding?
2- How much of a change does having the crafting points count same as Casting points do to crafters?
Yes... as a Ranger, I am a caster too... but its minor parlour tricks compared to Druids. I took a decent hit with this on both Armor Multiplier (I now have less armor protection than I had before the system changed) and Body ratios...and I don't have much casting power to speak of.
I'll play it either way- I really have no problems with doing so (I always forgot to use Armor points anyway..
).... but I do have concerns for other PC's. Father Duncan MacKenzie
Templar-High Priest of Brazen
Chaplain, Bloodspirits Mercenary Company
Janos Beecham (alt)
Dragoon of No Importance
John Tinney
Safety Marshal/ EMT
26 Feb 2014 20:20 #12
by Jack (Keeperofdice)
Ser Jack Siefer
Knight Of Drega'Mire
Head of Research & Development of Kormyre
Sky Marshal
Captain of the K.A.S. Tarrasque
OOG: Gus M.
“Men learn from their failures. I prefer to learn from the failures of others..”
"Sometimes what the world doesn't need is a hero. Sometimes what it needs is a monster."
Replied by Jack (Keeperofdice) on topic Body Ratio Adjustment
I lost over 200 body and don't have nearly the same armor as I did before, and I couldn't be happier. These rules are great changes that will bring balance to the game and make tag skills matter rather than being a temporary inconvenience. I just thought I'd offer my opinion as someone who was negatively affected by this but sees the purpose of it! Thanks!
Ser Jack Siefer
Knight Of Drega'Mire
Head of Research & Development of Kormyre
Sky Marshal
Captain of the K.A.S. Tarrasque
OOG: Gus M.
“Men learn from their failures. I prefer to learn from the failures of others..”
"Sometimes what the world doesn't need is a hero. Sometimes what it needs is a monster."
26 Feb 2014 20:24 #13
by Jack (Keeperofdice)
Ser Jack Siefer
Knight Of Drega'Mire
Head of Research & Development of Kormyre
Sky Marshal
Captain of the K.A.S. Tarrasque
OOG: Gus M.
“Men learn from their failures. I prefer to learn from the failures of others..”
"Sometimes what the world doesn't need is a hero. Sometimes what it needs is a monster."
Replied by Jack (Keeperofdice) on topic Body Ratio Adjustment
Also: with lower body/armor/damage LOOK how more useful spells like drain life and earth armor are going to be again!!!
Ser Jack Siefer
Knight Of Drega'Mire
Head of Research & Development of Kormyre
Sky Marshal
Captain of the K.A.S. Tarrasque
OOG: Gus M.
“Men learn from their failures. I prefer to learn from the failures of others..”
"Sometimes what the world doesn't need is a hero. Sometimes what it needs is a monster."
26 Feb 2014 20:38 - 26 Feb 2014 20:43 #15
by Gallion (Gallion)
- James C. Kimball Director, Knight Realms
Replied by Gallion (Gallion) on topic Body Ratio Adjustment
Three things worth mentioning, although I will not be debating or responding to responses... I just don't have time, too busy trying to improve every other aspect of the game and the camp...
1) The addition of casting points... literally no big deal. We did the math. Gideon who had 190 magic points, lost 2 body points as a result. Don't be so afraid, its not going to drastically effect the BP total of a generally balanced multi-classed character.
2) The system is simple if you don't concern yourself with min-maxing numbers.
- Your ratio is Uniquely tailored to your character
- If you buy combat-type skills, your ratio ticks slightly upward, towards three
- If you buy Spellcaster-type skills your ratio ticks slightly downward, towards one
- The Card System does all the work for you, and tells you what your ratio is.
- If you are NOT interested in totally min-maxing your body-points to a finite degree, then you don't need to concern yourself past that.
- If you ARE interested in min-maxing your body points to a finite degree, just buy as much combat skills as possible and don't spend too much on spell casting skills...
- If your character has half her build spent in combat abilities... and half her build spent in spell abilities... her ratio will be about two.
Its really not complicated, if you just understand the above bullet points.
3) We have spent the last year pouring over all of these changes and how they will effect every aspect of the game. We believe that things will fall into place shortly and the game balance will improve dramatically as a result. If we find out we were wrong about something we will not hesitate to fix it.. however I think things will be more than fine.
Thanks
1) The addition of casting points... literally no big deal. We did the math. Gideon who had 190 magic points, lost 2 body points as a result. Don't be so afraid, its not going to drastically effect the BP total of a generally balanced multi-classed character.
2) The system is simple if you don't concern yourself with min-maxing numbers.
- Your ratio is Uniquely tailored to your character
- If you buy combat-type skills, your ratio ticks slightly upward, towards three
- If you buy Spellcaster-type skills your ratio ticks slightly downward, towards one
- The Card System does all the work for you, and tells you what your ratio is.
- If you are NOT interested in totally min-maxing your body-points to a finite degree, then you don't need to concern yourself past that.
- If you ARE interested in min-maxing your body points to a finite degree, just buy as much combat skills as possible and don't spend too much on spell casting skills...
- If your character has half her build spent in combat abilities... and half her build spent in spell abilities... her ratio will be about two.
Its really not complicated, if you just understand the above bullet points.
3) We have spent the last year pouring over all of these changes and how they will effect every aspect of the game. We believe that things will fall into place shortly and the game balance will improve dramatically as a result. If we find out we were wrong about something we will not hesitate to fix it.. however I think things will be more than fine.
Thanks
- James C. Kimball Director, Knight Realms
26 Feb 2014 20:41 #16
by GJSchaller (GJSchaller)
Replied by GJSchaller (GJSchaller) on topic Body Ratio Adjustment
Cory, as a note for your suggestion - there will be no fractional body points, everything is rounded to come out even. No one even needs to do any math - it's all calculated for you, and printed on your card. You only need to do complicated math if you wish to calculate the exact amount of build you need to invest to increase your ratio to a specific number. (I actually made a Google Docs spreadsheet for this, once I make it look pretty, I will link it in the future.)
The main reason for the change, overall, is that anything simpler would be easy to "game" to maximize body. Prior to this, it was "Open a Fighter class, spend build." Now, it accurately reflects how you choose to focus your skills - as an example, Gideon is just about 50/50 when it comes to 3 BR skills, and 1 BR skills. And his Body Ratio is... a 2, right where it should be. I can't just go and buy build at 3:1, nor can I carefully select which skills I buy to keep a favored ratio that works to my advantage (i.e. - Since I have a few build more in 3 BR skills, I can't keep a 3.0 BR. My actual ratio reflects that half my build is in caster lists).
As for the choice on Crafting Points vs. the rest, I will defer to Mike Smith and James on their insight for that one.
The main reason for the change, overall, is that anything simpler would be easy to "game" to maximize body. Prior to this, it was "Open a Fighter class, spend build." Now, it accurately reflects how you choose to focus your skills - as an example, Gideon is just about 50/50 when it comes to 3 BR skills, and 1 BR skills. And his Body Ratio is... a 2, right where it should be. I can't just go and buy build at 3:1, nor can I carefully select which skills I buy to keep a favored ratio that works to my advantage (i.e. - Since I have a few build more in 3 BR skills, I can't keep a 3.0 BR. My actual ratio reflects that half my build is in caster lists).
As for the choice on Crafting Points vs. the rest, I will defer to Mike Smith and James on their insight for that one.
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Lord Gideon Weaveforger of Kaladonia Steward of Elvalion OOG: Geoffrey Schaller |
26 Feb 2014 22:35 #20
by GJSchaller (GJSchaller)
From www.knightrealms.com/forum/Announcements...amage,-and-soak.html :
"Additional Body Points are calculated by the amount of build they have invested into their Body, multiplied by a ratio based on the amount of build they have invested into their various professions." followed by "All fractional Body Scores are rounded up."
So if you have a 2.8 ratio, you will get 3 (2.8, rounded up), then 6 (5.6), then 9 (8.4), then 12 (11.2), and then 14 - only when the fractions accumulate enough, will you see less body. Of course, if your ratio is lower, you'll see that sooner rather than later - a 2.5 will see it every other purchase, while a 2.9 will not see it until every 10th purchase of body.
In short:
* The system is designed so you can't game or plateau your Body Ratio for max body, short of taking JUST Warrior skills (Which is fine!).
* It will be generous towards the player, not detrimental, as much as possible, while preventing min / maxing and powergaming.
Replied by GJSchaller (GJSchaller) on topic Body Ratio Adjustment
PIT DAWWWWWWG wrote: Will decimal point BP-ratios still give you the extra BP when they add up to whole numbers?
For instance, will someone with a 3.5 BP ratio get 7 BP for putting in 2 build? Or just 6, because the system rounds it to 3 each time?
From www.knightrealms.com/forum/Announcements...amage,-and-soak.html :
"Additional Body Points are calculated by the amount of build they have invested into their Body, multiplied by a ratio based on the amount of build they have invested into their various professions." followed by "All fractional Body Scores are rounded up."
So if you have a 2.8 ratio, you will get 3 (2.8, rounded up), then 6 (5.6), then 9 (8.4), then 12 (11.2), and then 14 - only when the fractions accumulate enough, will you see less body. Of course, if your ratio is lower, you'll see that sooner rather than later - a 2.5 will see it every other purchase, while a 2.9 will not see it until every 10th purchase of body.
In short:
* The system is designed so you can't game or plateau your Body Ratio for max body, short of taking JUST Warrior skills (Which is fine!).
* It will be generous towards the player, not detrimental, as much as possible, while preventing min / maxing and powergaming.
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Lord Gideon Weaveforger of Kaladonia Steward of Elvalion OOG: Geoffrey Schaller |
26 Feb 2014 22:36 #21
by GJSchaller (GJSchaller)
Replied by GJSchaller (GJSchaller) on topic Body Ratio Adjustment
Dammit, Joe...
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Lord Gideon Weaveforger of Kaladonia Steward of Elvalion OOG: Geoffrey Schaller |
27 Feb 2014 16:30 #26
by GJSchaller (GJSchaller)
Replied by GJSchaller (GJSchaller) on topic Body Ratio Adjustment
Knight Realms - Simple Body Ratio & Body calculator:
docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0At-...rNXRwU2c&usp=sharing
docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0At-...rNXRwU2c&usp=sharing
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Lord Gideon Weaveforger of Kaladonia Steward of Elvalion OOG: Geoffrey Schaller |
27 Feb 2014 19:58 #28
by Kleidin (Kleidin)
Replied by Kleidin (Kleidin) on topic Body Ratio Adjustment
My problem, is because of the racial penalty - whicj is pretty harsh for elves, and the addition of the druid pts to the 1 for 1, I am yet again below 100 body, which I NEED to use my 4th rank Heroic Witch Hunter ability.
What this system is going to create, is race bassed Min/Maxing.
There is NO reason anyone wold play an elven fighter. It is too much a detriment to the character.
as I see, witth my present build spent on body, I have been penelized over 20 body for my race - something that was not in the original rules.
I can understand the max allowed purchase as it was, but now, why would anyone play s non-ogre fighter class?
What this system is going to create, is race bassed Min/Maxing.
There is NO reason anyone wold play an elven fighter. It is too much a detriment to the character.
as I see, witth my present build spent on body, I have been penelized over 20 body for my race - something that was not in the original rules.
I can understand the max allowed purchase as it was, but now, why would anyone play s non-ogre fighter class?
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| Lady Kleidin du Tenkukai Weaveforger Laurent-Belmont of Kaladonia Master Witch Hunter, and Elder Druid OOG: Diane Sodher |
27 Feb 2014 20:24 - 27 Feb 2014 20:24 #29
by Jack (Keeperofdice)
Ser Jack Siefer
Knight Of Drega'Mire
Head of Research & Development of Kormyre
Sky Marshal
Captain of the K.A.S. Tarrasque
OOG: Gus M.
“Men learn from their failures. I prefer to learn from the failures of others..”
"Sometimes what the world doesn't need is a hero. Sometimes what it needs is a monster."
Replied by Jack (Keeperofdice) on topic Re:Re: Body Ratio Adjustment
Because they care about the game/roleplay/character instead of min-maxing
Ser Jack Siefer
Knight Of Drega'Mire
Head of Research & Development of Kormyre
Sky Marshal
Captain of the K.A.S. Tarrasque
OOG: Gus M.
“Men learn from their failures. I prefer to learn from the failures of others..”
"Sometimes what the world doesn't need is a hero. Sometimes what it needs is a monster."
Moderators: Lois Heimdell (LoisMaxwell)
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