Still more changes

Evil used to require a PC to be clever and careful. Which meant it was challenging to be evil and you didn't get to show off.

Now everyone is evil, because its easy. Abilities like Harvest your Soul, Grant Death, Necromantic Terror, Shield of Suffering. All need to be nerfed into the ground or removed entirely.

Evil lists are just straight up better in every way because of the RP / social sacrifice which was formerly required. I hope to see these changes go much further.

I could care less about min maxing and power gaming, however, pound for pound you're at a distinct disadvantage in a fight if you're a "good guy". Even after these changes.

Remember: "Kill your darlings"

I'm not sure if this is directly related but what exactly does Negate chaos affect?

From the Rulebook:

Negate Chaos

1 FP; Traits: Divine (Law), Ranged
This prayer negates an effect that is causing the recipient to behave in a raging or chaotic manner. It cannot negate fear or direct control effects, only effects that touch the mind for an instant and cause the subject to lose control of her sensibilities.

From what I could tell it would be chaotic alteration from the chaos warrior tree (since fear is a fear effect and despair is a social skill) but what else? I guess to me the wording seems pretty vague and with changes to the chaos domain I guess I am kinda wondering what effects this really works against now.

Also, I like this changes, I think it definitely makes everything more in line and I like that the "evil" (I mean if you REALLY want to look at it that way ) stuff is less powerful and is becoming more balanced because it will bring stuff back to being about RP, which is why people should do things. (IMO)

Here is my very long, and only mildly biased first impression of the changes. I do not intend these to be harsh, merely blunt and to the point. Hope it does not offend.

Valos
Imprison

6 FP; Traits: Divine (Law), Attack, Ranged, Condition (Immobilized)
This prayer confines an opponent within a divine barrier Imprisoning her for a duration of fifteen (15) minutes. The opponent cannot be moved or carried by any means.

No mention of ability to break free with a strength bonus, the only penalty is being unable to move the target. You can't break free from being immobilized with strength. -Michael S.

Tormenting Snare
4 FP; Traits: Divine (Torment), Attack, Ranged
This prayer instantly binds and gags an opponent with spiked chains. The opponent is bound by the hands and feet and gagged, rendered completely immobile and unable to speak. The bindings are not very secure, and can be cut loose with an edged weapon, broken loose by the opponent if she has Strength +4 or greater, or slipped out of by the opponent if she has the skill Escape. If the target does get loose of their bindings before the prayer expires, the target takes an additional 15 direct body damage. The bindings will disintegrate completely after five minutes.

Seems the Light version is much better in my opinion. 15 vs 5, no ability to break free vs str +4, the gagged trait, and ability to move the target does not make up for the 3x length improvement on the imprisonment spell in my opinion. both are rank 4 prayers, and while Imprisonment costs 2 fate points more, it is again, it lasts 3x longer.

While fundamentally the tag effects of Desperate Isolation have not changed much, all of the flavor for it is gone. It was one of the neatest, and most flavorful prayers i have read and now its just....boring... i get that IG it could be very difficult to impliment and keep track of, however i feel there may have been a better 'fix' than removing such an amazingly flavorful and God defining prayer. Same goes for removing the undead ability from Glomm, it was part of their way of worshiping, and another God defining ability ( and also one of the better reasons why Galladel dislikes them)

Shield of suffering - Ok after seeing this in effect, i agree it was OP no complaints on that one and completely agree with its alteration

Life Drain / Steal Vitality - pretty cool change, makes it more useful as 10BP is a drop in the bucket.


Corrupt strike - same effect as Despair - Does Corrupt Strike STACK if multipule uses are cast upon the target ? what if it is from different Casters ?

Temptation seems terribly useless and horribly limited in its use,when compared to Corrupted thoughts which is also a rank 1. and on first glance would seem to serve the same purpose.

Grovel - Much better wording but again the 'flavor text' has been removed from it also, does attacking while they are under the effects end them as in the previous incarnation ?

Necromantic Terror - Same just removed the insanity. Ok, not a big deal, same effect and just as absolutely brutal.

Havest your soul - Ok i get the move of getting away from low level abilities instantly dropping you into crit. am mostly OK with this.

Maul - Halved the usefulness of this, but remains a cost of 6 seems overpriced for what it does now


as for the newly re-banned / illegal prayers / spells needing to be 'nerfed' I have to point this out.
With greater risk to PC life and limb, should come greater reward.
. if ANYONE can cast light prayers and accepted magic and get away with it, why should those who have to cast from the shadows be just as powerful ? without the increased reward, the risk is hardly worth it.
I can cast incenerate and have it be legal, or harvest your soul and be imprisoned and both have the same exact effect. If i was a Necromancer, i would just ditch this and go back to fire mage, fare more useful if i dont have to hide myself casting it.

Anyway i hope this all comes off as constructive and not simply bashing the rules peoples hard work. I just wanted to attempt to shine some light on my first opinions on the situation.

Cheers !

No thoughts on the skills themselves, but for those talking about how these skills and evil PCs, please remember that these skill changes also apply to the NPCs we encounter. Nerfing "evil" skills may have more to do with PC vs NPC actions.

Also: Should Tormenting Snare have Condition (Held), as per Quick Bind?

I will try to keep this brief.

Harvest Your Soul has been updated as follows;

“Harvest Your Soul

6 MP; Traits: Arcane (Necromancy), Attack, Ranged
This spell inflicts catastrophic harm to an opponent, dealing 200 points of Magic Body damage. If used on an undead it will heal it for 200 body points.”

With Black Sorcery you are able to use this spell to heal yourself, but at a decreased rate (1/2) than the benefit to undead. Since it is being reduced by half, do you intend to leave the heroic ability as only healing 100, or will that skill be looked at being brought up now since it doesn't do as much numerically?


With regard to Maul, and Pulverize as Compared to Wither Limb:
I know sever limbs are considered to be more useful than break limbs, and as a result cost more. Since Maul and Pulverize only break a limb and daze a target, rather than Wither Limb having it effectively become severed, is the cost of 6 really justifiable anymore?


Regarding "Overpowered skills":
On paper I agree with the changes to skills like Shield of Suffering, Maul/Pulverize, and the nerf to damage on Harvest Your Soul and Grant Death, but as I think about it more I am starting to notice an issue. Previously it was accepted that spells were a little more powerful than their physical combat cousins. Which previously, was odd because there was no detriment to casted effects. In fact, previously spells were much harder to defend and that was a benefit in and of itself.
However now with body ratios functioning as well as they do, spells and their point cost greatly negatively effect your body. Additionally with regard to defending spells, Master Warrior now presents warrior classes with their much needed spell defenses (Such as Perfect Focus, Defiant Cover, and Immaculate Defense) whereas they are already able to defend their own classes really well using parry, resilience, and repels.
Take a caster now, who seems to have more defenses aimed at other casters on their master list (Negate, Mind Citadel, Elemental Ward) that do not really defend the warrior class of skills. Combine that with the fact that their lower list has limited ability to defend much of anything at all, and you have what most people considered casters to be for a long time: Glass cannons, dealing greater offensive effects to other classes but with limited abilities to defend. Particularly when you realize they're stuck with low body.
The thing is people are always thinking about these classes in terms of balance when they are mixed together. When we are presented with situations that people would call them overpowered, it's because you have have a shield and defenses off warrior and offenses off a caster list. I think that is the real problem that isn't really being fixed here by simply nerfing spells to be in line with warrior skills, and the problem is when someone just wants to play a caster they're going to be outclassed by a warrior.
At least that's how I feel, the warrior half of me is getting stronger than the caster part, to the point where I wonder why I bother casting anymore. Why would I spend so much build on a caster list when I can do the same thing with a warrior list (namely warrior itself) and have more body to show for it.